Okay I read what you wrote. You say it’s just random instances of police violence in Xinjiang but it looks like an orchestrated programme of forcing Uyghurs to become communist loyalists. The BBC looked at documents leaked from Chinese authorities (these documents were leaked to other media outlets too such as Der Spiegel in Germany):
The cache contains another secret speech, delivered in 2017 by Chen Quanguo - until recently Xinjiang’s hardline Communist Party secretary.
“For some, even five years re-education may not be enough,” he tells his audience of senior military and police cadres, a seeming admission that for as long as any Uyghur continues to feel a loyalty to identity or faith at least as strong as to the Party, there’s no end in sight.
You mention fabricated western propaganda, and sure that can happen. Surely that would come from governments though rather than media companies.
As for the New York Times and the BBC. Maybe you think they spin things in a certain way, or that they don’t cover what they should cover. But that’s a different question to the question of whether their claims are factual. You could have a media outlet that selectively covers only particular topics, but nonetheless their facts may still be accurate.
You might dislike the US and Israel, and sure they have done some terrible things over the years, but maybe there are lots of countries that have done terrible things. Maybe China is one of those countries.
Claims in 2017 by a communist party member cherrypicked from 400 pages of documents in Chinese is very little incriminating in terms of what I’ve been asking from the beginning: material evidence of ongoing widespread mistreatment of Uyghur. We can move the goalposts to the claim “there are some officials in the Communist Party of China who have too hard, arguably racist and repressive stances regarding Uyghurs” if you want, but it’s not the original claim to which I’m responding.
BBC and New York Crimes both repeated Hasbara propaganda of widespread rapes during Oct 7th, which is exactly the same thing we’re arguing here. They don’t need to “make things up”, they only need to take a few instances of abuse, generalize them, and run a nonstop atrocity propaganda campaign for political purposes. Media manipulation in this regard is more refined and effective than, say, conservative propaganda like “Jan 6th was actually antifa”, which consists on simply manufacturing facts.
China isn’t a perfect state, and I don’t make such claims, but arguing about genocide or persecution of an ethnic minority is a very serious claim that, being a topic that in theory affects millions of Uyghurs, would have led to massive amounts of footage by smartphone owners as we have seen from Gaza
According to the BBC, Xi Jinping himself may have been pushing for the system of camps used for the internment of Uyghurs:
In a speech, stamped as “classified” and delivered by Zhao Kezhi, China’s Minister for Public Security, on a visit to Xinjiang in June 2018, he suggests that at least two million people are infected with “extremist thought” in southern Xinjiang alone.
Peppered with references to President Xi Jinping, the speech heaps praise on the Chinese leader for his “important instructions” for the construction of new facilities and an increase in funding for prisons to cope with the influx in detainees necessary to reach that two million target.
You mention “massive amounts of footage” - the article I have just linked to has photos taken inside these internment camps, but it seems the wider world was only able to see these photos once Chinese police computers had been hacked (the source of the info in that article).
Anyway, maybe the truth is that every country is capable of bad things, whether it’s the US, or Israel, or China, or any other country.
The BBC article constantly references Adrian Zenz, supposed “Sinologist” who doesnt speak a word of Chinese and hasn’t set foot in the country. Oh, he’s also a cofounder of the “victims of communism memorial association” and a rabid christian fundamentalist. I wonder if any of that has anything to do with his desire to spread propaganda of “China bad”.
Go to the article: published May 2022, all the claims are of things that supposedly happened in 2017, 2018 or at most 2019. I repeat my original point: are there any ONGOING acts of mass mistreatment of Uyghur in Xinjiang? Best you can come up with is pictures from the well-known reeducation camps from 8 years ago.
What we know so far is this: there was a series of terrorist attacks in China in 2013-2014 onwards, coming from Islamist radicals linked to Al-Qaida and ISIS. The government responded later with a big reeducation program in the province of Xinjiang, which by all accounts is closed by 2021. There is anecdotal, mostly anonymous, evidence of mistreatment of particular individuals in the process, not corroborated by material evidence such as video or picture. All the news you find refer to processes that took place 5-ish years ago. I cast the same question that I asked at the beginning: IS THERE ANY ONGOING MASS-MISTREATMENTS OF UYGHURS IN XINJIANG
are there any ONGOING acts of mass mistreatment of Uyghur in Xinjiang?
I don’t know. But even if the detention camps have closed (whether they have, I don’t know), the treatment of Uyghurs for a while still seems to have been bad. I’m not trying to say “China is worse than the West” or anything like that. I just think that massive internment camps for ethnic minorities, where rape allegedly happens, don’t seem like a great thing - whether they appear in China, the USA, or anywhere else.
there was a series of terrorist attacks in China in 2013-2014 onwards, coming from Islamist radicals linked to Al-Qaida and ISIS. The government responded later with a big reeducation program in the province of Xinjiang
If the US had done the same thing in their country after 9/11, I bet you would have criticised it.
The US does this today. 20% of black males go through prison throughout their lifetimes, they have the largest prison population in the world. The difference being that this isn’t a temporary measure lasting a few years, with the (achieved) goal being reeducation as a consequence of terrorist strikes in the wake of a world wave of radical Islamism. This is a systematic form of racism, a legacy of slavery (and a continuation given how slave labour is legal in US prisons) and something you probably have 0 comments talking about.
where rape allegedly happens
There isn’t material evidence of mass rape taking place. You could claim this about any institution in any patriarchal society, but we don’t append “where rape allegedly happens” to every institution.
I think the testimonies of rape are credible and major news organisations from multiple countries clearly think that leaked police files from Xinjiang are credible. I’m not aware of similar accusations regarding American prisons concerning black inmates.
Anyway, I expect you just won’t believe anything the BBC says (which I just linked to). I think the BBC are credible and reliable, but if you don’t think that, okay. I can’t change your mind of course. We will just have different views.
Interesting, I googled for reports of Arab emissaries going to Xinjiang and I found this from Time magazine, published in 2022:
Arab states are not only lending rhetorical support to China, they are also actively assisting Beijing in its global campaign of abuse and reprisals against Uighurs. At least six governments in the Arab world—Egypt, Morocco, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and the UAE—have detained or extradited Uighurs at China’s behest. According to our dataset at the Oxus Society for Central Asian Affairs, around 292 Uighurs have been detained or deported from Arab states at China’s behest since 2002.
Also you mention “multiple western* countries” as if western countries are automatically wrong. I don’t think that’s true. I think there are certainly biased media outlets in the West, but I think there are genuine and reliable media outlets too. I think the BBC is reliable. If someone proves their reporting to be plain wrong then I will re-evaluate them, but I haven’t yet seen that happen.
Okay I read what you wrote. You say it’s just random instances of police violence in Xinjiang but it looks like an orchestrated programme of forcing Uyghurs to become communist loyalists. The BBC looked at documents leaked from Chinese authorities (these documents were leaked to other media outlets too such as Der Spiegel in Germany):
You mention fabricated western propaganda, and sure that can happen. Surely that would come from governments though rather than media companies.
As for the New York Times and the BBC. Maybe you think they spin things in a certain way, or that they don’t cover what they should cover. But that’s a different question to the question of whether their claims are factual. You could have a media outlet that selectively covers only particular topics, but nonetheless their facts may still be accurate.
You might dislike the US and Israel, and sure they have done some terrible things over the years, but maybe there are lots of countries that have done terrible things. Maybe China is one of those countries.
Claims in 2017 by a communist party member cherrypicked from 400 pages of documents in Chinese is very little incriminating in terms of what I’ve been asking from the beginning: material evidence of ongoing widespread mistreatment of Uyghur. We can move the goalposts to the claim “there are some officials in the Communist Party of China who have too hard, arguably racist and repressive stances regarding Uyghurs” if you want, but it’s not the original claim to which I’m responding.
BBC and New York Crimes both repeated Hasbara propaganda of widespread rapes during Oct 7th, which is exactly the same thing we’re arguing here. They don’t need to “make things up”, they only need to take a few instances of abuse, generalize them, and run a nonstop atrocity propaganda campaign for political purposes. Media manipulation in this regard is more refined and effective than, say, conservative propaganda like “Jan 6th was actually antifa”, which consists on simply manufacturing facts.
China isn’t a perfect state, and I don’t make such claims, but arguing about genocide or persecution of an ethnic minority is a very serious claim that, being a topic that in theory affects millions of Uyghurs, would have led to massive amounts of footage by smartphone owners as we have seen from Gaza
According to the BBC, Xi Jinping himself may have been pushing for the system of camps used for the internment of Uyghurs:
You mention “massive amounts of footage” - the article I have just linked to has photos taken inside these internment camps, but it seems the wider world was only able to see these photos once Chinese police computers had been hacked (the source of the info in that article).
Anyway, maybe the truth is that every country is capable of bad things, whether it’s the US, or Israel, or China, or any other country.
The BBC article constantly references Adrian Zenz, supposed “Sinologist” who doesnt speak a word of Chinese and hasn’t set foot in the country. Oh, he’s also a cofounder of the “victims of communism memorial association” and a rabid christian fundamentalist. I wonder if any of that has anything to do with his desire to spread propaganda of “China bad”.
Go to the article: published May 2022, all the claims are of things that supposedly happened in 2017, 2018 or at most 2019. I repeat my original point: are there any ONGOING acts of mass mistreatment of Uyghur in Xinjiang? Best you can come up with is pictures from the well-known reeducation camps from 8 years ago.
What we know so far is this: there was a series of terrorist attacks in China in 2013-2014 onwards, coming from Islamist radicals linked to Al-Qaida and ISIS. The government responded later with a big reeducation program in the province of Xinjiang, which by all accounts is closed by 2021. There is anecdotal, mostly anonymous, evidence of mistreatment of particular individuals in the process, not corroborated by material evidence such as video or picture. All the news you find refer to processes that took place 5-ish years ago. I cast the same question that I asked at the beginning: IS THERE ANY ONGOING MASS-MISTREATMENTS OF UYGHURS IN XINJIANG
I don’t know. But even if the detention camps have closed (whether they have, I don’t know), the treatment of Uyghurs for a while still seems to have been bad. I’m not trying to say “China is worse than the West” or anything like that. I just think that massive internment camps for ethnic minorities, where rape allegedly happens, don’t seem like a great thing - whether they appear in China, the USA, or anywhere else.
If the US had done the same thing in their country after 9/11, I bet you would have criticised it.
The US does this today. 20% of black males go through prison throughout their lifetimes, they have the largest prison population in the world. The difference being that this isn’t a temporary measure lasting a few years, with the (achieved) goal being reeducation as a consequence of terrorist strikes in the wake of a world wave of radical Islamism. This is a systematic form of racism, a legacy of slavery (and a continuation given how slave labour is legal in US prisons) and something you probably have 0 comments talking about.
There isn’t material evidence of mass rape taking place. You could claim this about any institution in any patriarchal society, but we don’t append “where rape allegedly happens” to every institution.
I think the testimonies of rape are credible and major news organisations from multiple countries clearly think that leaked police files from Xinjiang are credible. I’m not aware of similar accusations regarding American prisons concerning black inmates.
Anyway, I expect you just won’t believe anything the BBC says (which I just linked to). I think the BBC are credible and reliable, but if you don’t think that, okay. I can’t change your mind of course. We will just have different views.
From multiple western* countries. Emissaries from many Arab countries went to Xinjiang and declared that nothing wrong was happening.
https://www.aecf.org/resources/abused-by-the-state
Interesting, I googled for reports of Arab emissaries going to Xinjiang and I found this from Time magazine, published in 2022:
Also you mention “multiple western* countries” as if western countries are automatically wrong. I don’t think that’s true. I think there are certainly biased media outlets in the West, but I think there are genuine and reliable media outlets too. I think the BBC is reliable. If someone proves their reporting to be plain wrong then I will re-evaluate them, but I haven’t yet seen that happen.